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 Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing

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PostSubject: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:16 pm





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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:32 pm

This guy tells it like it is  lol!


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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:51 pm

NVidia "deceit" was simply marketing... Of course they won't reveal the full extent of it's performance or not actually say that what your seeing is the 2080ti or perhaps skirt around the prices, they will allow expectation and hints at possibilities to sell their products, the PROPER reviews will clear things up...

As of now, I was saving for a new 1080ti, now I'm defo getting one of these, the 2080 to be precise, been saving for ages.

RTX isn't ray tracing, but the card DOES do ray tracing, without a doubt. if you want advance in computer graphics this is the way it will go. This isn't Ray tracing as you know it in CG films which still takes ages to calculate with multiple paths for bounced light, but this is definitely a step forwards IMHO. Removing the need to calculate lighting in scenes and having a baked in reflection is a great improvement in quality and realism. This might not be what people think Ray Tracing is, bit IT IS ray tracing, calculated real time, at a much lower quality than films might be, but a massive improvement on what currect games can display. It's a first step to more dynamic real looking real time CG.

Current released cards sent to reviewers are held under NDA restrictions, ie, they have to say what NVidia allows them to say. The "proper" reviews when reviewers get their hands on released cards will reveal all... Plus these NDAs last for years not just until release date, some may ignore this, though at their peril.

From reading lots about this, I can fairly confidently say that the new 2080 (not the Ti) will outperform the 1080ti, only by a margin of around 15% ish, but it does have the other benefits, AI and Ray Tracing abilities if adopted, which are promising plus DirectX 12 too. Even ignoring these new features, the card is still faster.

1080ti cards are dropping in price, but I'd rather get a slightly better card for around £200 more, which will be far more future proofed for upcoming games.

I'm in, and ignoring the Haters, speculators and guessers until the proper tests are in.
Watch this space.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:20 pm

Apparently the NDA, or parts of it ends on Wednesday, so more proper info to come soon...
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:39 pm

I see it like this, for normal use incl games, the card will probably be 10-15% faster then the 1080.

For raytracing it will be a lot faster, like never seen before.

But... games do need to use raytracing for the card to make use of that special raytrace feature.
Most games don't use raytracing yet, and it will take some time, 1 or 2 years, before games start using full raytracing.

By that time there will be newer faster cards with improved raytracing engine.
As usual this will be the consumer test version, with lots of bugs and whatever, best wait for the next RTX series.
Might not even take long, I remember years ago I preordered a card, when finally released there where lot of problem with it and tons of driver updates.
Half year later they came up with a new cheaper improved faster cooler version of the same card, and I was stuck with the older shit.

I just can't afford $1000, and it is way too much anyway. I'll stick with a cheaper midrange card for now. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:06 am

1080 TI is already £300 cheaper than a month ago and should drop even
more in price once the new cards ship,as i don`t play many games i`ll go
with the 1080 TI methinks.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:26 am

The 1080TI still about €750 here. Way too much for me. Twisted Evil
Rather buy a card for half that price, and then start saving for some fpv goggles and other drone stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:19 pm

The prices of the 1080ti cards has not changed since the announcement I'm afraid, I've been watching them for months as I was going to buy one.
They came down a month-ish ago from around £750 (the low priced ones) to, now, today, on Scan £605. This happened due to overstock (bitcoin) and vendors sending large stock back to NVidia after the Bit-Coin slow down.
The prices have come down by about £20-£40 since the news of the 2080 cards (ok, slight decrease), I'm waiting for them to hit £500, it hasn't happened yet. I'd be surprised if you can find one in the UK for £500 yet or even below £600, but it will happen.

If the reviews show something terrible, I'm getting a 1080ti as I was going to get initially, if all is good and performance of the 2080 (non-Ti) is at LEAST the same as the 1080ti, then I'll get one of those.

There may be issues initally, driver problems, etc, but new generations of cards only come out generally speaking, once a year.

At this stage I shall be holding my breath, but at least if I have to settle for 1080Ti, it'll be a vast improvement on my current GTX970.
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:56 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:58 pm

oh shit...only 3 left...they better not sell out before i gets me dosh 

https://www.box.co.uk/GAINWARD-GeForce-GTX-1080-Ti-PHOENIX-Gra_2279683.html

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Too expensive Muckers, they've been that price for a while not only recently.
In a week or 2 they will be close to £500 - £550 ish...
Cheaper on here, very reputable and large company near me.

https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-nvidia/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-graphics-cards
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:55 pm

And that last vid is basically what I'm saying, quality of render over performance.
I'm happy with that, as I understand from the info so far that's most likely what we will actually get.
Good vid.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:28 pm

Had not noticed the difference in amount of cores for each card, as shown at the link you provide papa.
Looks like the 1060 6gb I'm planning to buy only has 1280. Neutral  Ah well, the card still twice as fast then the gtx960 I got now.
I could wait a bit more for prices to drop, so I can get a little better card, but how long will that take.
Think I'm just going to buy that 1060 6gb and get it over with, but maybe I manage to drool at the webpage a few weeks more. Smile

edit: Just found out the those cores are 'Cuda cores', not sure they are even used for gaming.
As far as I understood those are only good for rendering Cuda 3d modeling scenes and stuff. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:14 am

PapaLazarou wrote:
Too expensive Muckers, they've been that price for a while not only recently.
In a week or 2 they will be close to £500 - £550 ish...
Cheaper on here, very reputable and large company near me.

https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-nvidia/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-graphics-cards
I only ever buy gainward cards....superb performance and never had one fail on me.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm

Canner....
CUDA "Cores" are most certainly used for gaming, it's THE main workhorse of all NVidia cards.

I'll try to explain, short version...

CUDA was designed by NVidia and is essentially a set of tools to communicate with the GPU cores on a video card. These tools can be used by coders to access the memory and GPU cores on the video card.
The final CUDA code that is written by the tools (in "C" I think) can be run on each and all of the cores of the GPU processor, hence sometimes referred to as "CUDA Cores". I be more inclined to call them CUDA powered cores which is a little more accurate... but yes all games most certainly use CUDA powered cores.

The cores are the main thing here when looking at a different video card in any given range, say 1060, 1070 or 1080. Essentially they are all the same cards, same memory, same GPU and mostly around the same clock speeds, only the higher numbered versions have more cores, therefore more computational power to parallel process the CUDA code. It relates pretty much in this way too, that if you have double the cores, you will have double the performance.


I would defo wait a week or two at least, perhaps a little longer, we should see the prices drop more over the coming weeks, then settle as the reviews are in and the new 2080 range are on proper general sale.

So knowing that cores are the key to performance in any given range of cards...
Looking on Scan just now, the 1060 6gb mid price is around £260-£270 ish....
the 1070 8gb is around £370 - £390 so around £120 more...
The thing is, the cores for the 1060 is 1280, the cores for the 1070 is 1920, this is a big difference in performance for £120, in fact it's a 50% increase in performance over the 1060.
1920/1280 = 1.5 = 50 % increase.
You may also consider a 1070ti at around £430 which will be around £180 more than the 1060, as they have 2432 cores, this increase will now be 90% faster, ie almost double the 1060 in performance.
2432/1280 = 1.9 = 90% increase.
So that's a 90% increase in performance for about 50% more cash going from 1060 to 1070ti. 

My Advice Canner, serously consider paying an extra £100ish (I checked prices earlier) to get a 1070, instead of the 1060 simply based on the number of cores. I think if you check a review you'll find a significant performance increase over the 1060, I'm guesing as the 1070 has 50% more cores, then it will be pretty much exactly 50% faster overall.

Also, you can't compares cores of the 1060 with cores of the 960 really, as they are different architecture, the proper way really is a head to head test review. The 1060 has only 1280 cores, but will be much faster than your current 960, see reviews for tests.

Link to Scans 1060s and 1070s...
https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-nvidia/2251/2295/2672

Hope that helps with your decision...
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:33 pm

Muckers.

Seriously consider a different brand mate, I have the MSI GTX970 Twin Fozr right now, and my considerably geekier mate also had one, he then bought the MSI 1080ti version, they are great, no issues, overclocked to the max at various points without issue, and quiet fans too.
The reason I went with MSIs Twin Fozr one is the quiet fans and a good review...

All 1080tis are pretty much the same, they all get the GPU from NVidia, then make their own boards, power circuitry and cooling, some overclock and test them, so they can be sold with higher clocks etc, but all are essentially the same

Check reviews mate, it may save you some dollars, and maybe even get a quieter card, or faster for the same money or perhaps just get one thats' actually in stock when they start selling more soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:28 pm

Thanks for explaining, papa. Decided to take your advice and save a little more to get a better card.
Now going for at least a 1070, but hopefully a 1070TI if the prices drop a little during the next month.


PapaLazarou wrote:
The reason I went with MSIs Twin Fozr one is the quiet fans and a good review...
I also prefer MSI gpu cards, cause I really like the MSI Afterburner app. Smile

The card I'm going to buy now will also be from MSI. 
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:38 am

Cool, no problem mate, glad to have helped... Wink
I'm pretty sure what I've said is correct, check comparisons/reviews if needed between 1060 and 1070 for more detail, but yeh, pretty much that.

I will also be getting the MSI version of whatever I get unless it means spending £100 more on a 2080. If I get the 1080ti it'll be MSI again, and yes Afterburner is a useful little tuning tool that's also a bonus for tuning and overclocking if needed

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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:59 pm

PapaLazarou wrote:
and yes Afterburner is a useful little tuning tool that's also a bonus for tuning and overclocking if needed
I specially like how you can customize the layout so you can see gpu temp, fan speed, and cpu temp at the same time.
And the oc/fanspeed tab is also easy to use, plus you can save oc-profiles that can be activated with 1 click.
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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:46 am

I also like Gainwards control panel,nice looking and simple to use.



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PostSubject: Re: Nvidia's Deceit. RTX Does Not Mean Ray Tracing   Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:26 am

OK, so, after all that, I bought a 1080ti..


I wouldn't discount the 2080 though just yet, for me, the final decision was I found a good card for £620, compared to the near £800 I would have to spend on a 2080 (Non Ti, from this point on I'm talking about the non-Ti). This alone, ie spending nearly £800 on a video card, so early too, I just couldn't justify it...

Plus I'm damn impatient, I want to play new stuff, now...
Wink

To be clear though the 2080 does have some awesome potential regarding DLSS (AI based Anti-Aliasing). I say potential because no games have it in yet, it's only been played around with by Unreal chaps and Metro Exodus chaps, the card is only just on the shelves (2080s appeared on time, 20th Sept in Scan, Bolton).
The reason this feature alone should be considered is because, if it turns out to be at least as good as normal AA, then you should really compare the 2080 to a 1080ti in performance tests with AA set to off on the 2080. In tems of performance the 2080 would be much much faster than the around 5% ish with standard AA on both cards. This really matters, as now it seems even at this early stage the DLSS would make your 2080 around 40% faster than a 1080ti if you have AI on both cards. Ignoring Raytracing, AA alone which improves image quality massively but is a huge perofrmance hit, it's well worth considering as the performance bang for buck is clearly much better than first imagined.
Also bear in mind that this new tech DLSS does not use CUDA cores, so CUDA code no longer has to compute AA, it's all done on the separate Tensor cores, hence the massive performance gain.

Anyway, for me, I love the new direction NVidia have taken, brave yes, but ultimately it going to lead to much much better AA, much much better image quality, and because of the previous 2, ability to push around far more pixels and increase performance...

This 1080ti I bought though, wow, I can have pretty much everything maxed out, running at well over 100fps, before on my GTX970, had to back off on settings and lucky to get above 60fps.
Also got all my video decoding done on CUDA too, via LAV video which runs when I play anything on PotPlayer, best way for best quality.
Well happy for now, next year when more games use DLSS and the next gen RTX cards are out, we'll see, perhaps the year after this is an expensive hobby.
Arse I need a new CPU too... Wink
...and a FPV headset...
...and a new 4K TV for films....
Feck.

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